[TI] Catholic church ban on Mormans accessing Sacramentalrecords.

[Bart Merella]

A follow-on note to Ken's comments.

Much has been made of the Catholic Church's position on this matter.
Recent articles in the press on this issue have made note of the fact
that several Protestant denominations and Jewish congregations are
equally opposed to the Mormon practice of geneaological baptism and
restrict access their own records accordingly. 

Pace,
Bart Merella  

-----Original Message-----
From: terminiimerese-bounces at comunesofitaly.org
[mailto:terminiimerese-bounces at comunesofitaly.org] On Behalf Of Ken
Geraci
Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2008 2:13 PM
To: terminiimerese at comunesofitaly.org
Subject: Re: [TI] Catholic church ban on Mormans accessing
Sacramentalrecords.

My 2 cents, three weeks late... (been on the road)

I'm a Catholic but I don't think the "ban" on Mormon access to Catholic
records is going to impact things very much for us. I think that many,
if not most Catholic parishes already had been observing policies of
very limited access to sacramental records. In some ways this "new" ban
is merely restating what has always been the policy of the Church over
the centuries even if it may not have been always enforced in some
places and times.

Our own Duomo in Termini is a good case in point of this pre-existing
policy of limited access to the records. Over the years we have barely
received access to these records and it's usually only with Fr.
Anthony's presence or only lately with the parish becoming somewhat
familiar with a few members of our genealogical group and even then,
many of us are Catholics or former Catholics asking for records on our
own ancestors. 

Why the big deal over access to these records? 

There are several reasons for the limited access policy including
people's privacy but the big reason has always been that if a person
could get free access to sacramental records without safeguards, they
could do something like go in and erase a previous marriage on the back
of a baptismal record so that they or perhaps another person could then
be potentially free to remarry in the Church even when that person might
already still be validly married to someone else. This would be a very
grave situation in the eyes of the Church and most priests want to avoid
something like this ever happening at any cost even if it means making
the records off-limits to most people.

Also a person's First Communion, Confirmation, Matrimony and/or Holy
Orders are all recorded on the back of a person's Baptismal record at
the person's original church of Baptism and the presence or absence of
these sacramental events may have an impact on the eligibility for
receiving other Sacraments. 

The sacramental records also can be used to prevent persons who are too
closely related from being married since familial relationships can be
potentially researched through these records and hence a reason to guard
even the older records.

Overall, the sacramental records are treated much more seriously by the
Church than they would be if they were considered to be merely
historical records. This is because the Church believes that she has
been entrusted by Christ with guardianship and proper adminstration of
the Sacraments and these records are vital to the ability to be able to
properly fulfill this responsibility.

I think most parishes will still cooperate with us if they can determine
that the records are being requested by related individuals for genuine
family genealogy as opposed to being requested by an unrelated group
from another religion for unknown practices. So I think we will still be
in mostly good shape.

Sorry to join in 3 weeks late! Hope all are well and enjoying the
beginning of Summer! :-)

Ken Geraci 

--- Frank <fpalmis at comcast.net> wrote:

> Hello all.  May I add my thoughts.
> 
> I am a practicing Catholic.  This whole thing seems ridiculous to me 
> for several reasons.
> 
> First, as a Catholic, I'm not at all
> worried/concerned/offended by anything someone else purports to "do" 
> to my ancestors.  I know what I believe.  Even if the Mormons were 
> intent on using Catholic baptismal and other records to baptize 
> Catholics postumously into their faith, it would mean the same to me 
> as someone saying they were going to curse my ancestors into hell!
> 
> Second, others have mentioned difficulties they have had in being able

> to get Catholic Church records in other countries for their own 
> families'
> genealogical research.  I haven't tried that yet. 
> But what I do know is
> that I had to pay $25 to get a copy of a relative's baptismal record 
> from a diocese, which I won't embarrass by naming it.  My point is 
> that if the Catholic Church were to give Mormons the records for free,

> as a Catholic I would be very offended just because they wouldn't give

> them to me for free, and it was MY relative!  It would be wonderful 
> for me as someone researching my genealogy if those Catholic Church 
> records were digitized, etc., of course, but I'm thinking my Church's 
> arrogance is really what is at work here, rather than any religious 
> conviction or concern.
> 
> Third, as a Catholic, sometimes I'm
> embarrassed/offended by what my Church or its hierarchy does or fails 
> to do, just as I am sometimes by what my government does or fails to 
> do.  This is perhaps one of those times.
> 
> Frank
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: terminiimerese-bounces at comunesofitaly.org
> [mailto:terminiimerese-bounces at comunesofitaly.org]On
> Behalf Of Gloria
> Otto
> Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 1:26 PM
> To: terminiimerese at comunesofitaly.org
> Subject: Re: [TI] Catholic church ban on Mormans 
> accessingSacramentalrecords.
> 
> 
> This does not sound good for genealogists. From the Catholic News 
> Service:
>
http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0802443.htm
> 
> VATICAN-MORMONS May-2-2008 (1,010 words) xxxn Vatican letter directs 
> bishops to keep parish records from Mormons By Chaz Muth Catholic News

> Service WASHINGTON (CNS) -- In an effort to block posthumous 
> rebaptisms by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 
> Catholic dioceses throughout the world have been directed by the 
> Vatican not to give information in parish registers to the Mormons' 
> Genealogical Society of Utah.
> 
> An April 5 letter from the Vatican Congregation for Clergy, obtained 
> by Catholic News Service in late April, asks episcopal conferences to 
> direct all bishops to keep the Latter-day Saints from microfilming and

> digitizing information contained in those registers.
> 
> The order came in light of "grave reservations"
> expressed in a Jan. 29
> letter from the Vatican Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, 
> the clergy congregation's letter said.
> Father James Massa, executive director of the U.S.
> bishops' Secretariat of
> Ecumenical and Interreligious Affairs, said
> 
> the step was taken to prevent the Latter-day Saints from using records

> -- such as baptismal documentation -- to posthumously baptize by proxy

> the ancestors of church members.
> Posthumous baptisms by proxy have been a common practice for the 
> Latter-day Saints -- commonly known as Mormons -- for more than a 
> century, allowing the church's faithful to have their ancestors 
> baptized into their faith so they may be united in the afterlife, said

> Mike Otterson, a spokesman in the church's Salt Lake City 
> headquarters.
> 
> In a telephone interview with CNS May 1, Otterson said he wanted a 
> chance to review the contents of the letter before commenting on how 
> it will affect the Mormons' relationship with the Catholic Church.
> "This dicastery is bringing this matter to the attention of the 
> various conferences of bishops," the letter reads. "The congregation 
> requests that the conference notifies each diocesan bishop in order to

> ensure that such a detrimental practice is not permitted in his 
> territory, due to the confidentiality of the faithful and so as not to

> cooperate with the erroneous practices of the Church of Jesus Christ 
> of Latter-day Saints."
> The letter is dated 10 days before Pope Benedict XVI's April 15-20 
> U.S.
> visit, during which he presided over an ecumenical prayer service 
> attended by two Mormon leaders. It marked the first time Mormons had 
> participated in a papal prayer service.
> 
> Father Massa said he could see how the policy stated in the letter 
> could strain relations between the Catholic Church and the Latter-day 
> Saints.
> "It certainly has that potential," he said. "But I would also say that

> the purpose of interreligious dialogue is not to only identify 
> agreements, but also to understand our differences. As Catholics, we 
> have to make very clear to them their practice of so-called rebaptism 
> is unacceptable from the standpoint of Catholic truth."
> The Catholic Church will eventually open a dialogue with the Mormons 
> about the rebaptism issue, Father Massa said, "but we are at the 
> beginning of the beginning of a new relationship with the LDS. The 
> first step in any dialogue is to establish trust and to seek 
> friendship."
> 
> The two faiths share intrinsic viewpoints on key issues the United 
> States is facing, particularly the pro-life position on abortion and 
> an opposition to same-sex marriage.
> However, theological differences have cropped up between Mormons and 
> Catholics in the past.
> 
> In 2001 the Vatican's doctrinal congregation issued a ruling that 
> baptism conferred by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints 
> cannot be considered a valid Christian baptism, thus requiring 
> converts from that religion to Catholicism to receive a Catholic 
> baptism.
> "We don't have an issue with the fact that the Catholic Church doesn't

> recognize our baptisms, because we don't recognize theirs," Otterson 
> said.
> "It's a difference of belief."
> When issuing its 2001 ruling, the Vatican said that even though the 
> Mormon baptismal rite refers to the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, the 
> church's beliefs about the identity of the three persons are so 
> different from Catholic and mainline Christian belief that the rite 
> cannot be regarded as a Christian baptism.
> Latter-day Saints regard Jesus and the Holy Spirit as children of the 
> Father and the Heavenly Mother. They believe that baptism was 
> instituted by the Father, not Christ, and that it goes back to Adam 
> and Eve.
> 
> Msgr. J. Terrence Fitzgerald -- vicar general of the Diocese of Salt 
> Lake City -- said he didn't understand why the Latter-day Saints 
> church was singled out in this latest Vatican policy regarding parish 
> records.
> "We have a policy not to give out baptismal records to anyone unless 
> they are entitled to have them," Msgr. Fitzgerald said of his diocese.

> "That isn't just for the Church of the Latter-day Saints.
> That is for all groups."
> Though he said the Salt Lake City Diocese has enjoyed a long-standing 
> dialogue with the Latter-day Saints, Msgr.
> Fitzgerald said the diocese does
> not support giving the Mormons names for the sake of rebaptism.
> Mormons have been criticized by several other faiths
> -- perhaps most
> passionately by the Jews -- for the church's practice of posthumous 
> baptism.
> 
> Members of the Latter-day Saints believe baptizing their ancestors by 
> proxy gives the dead an opportunity to embrace the faith in the 
> afterlife. The actual baptism-by-proxy ceremony occurs in a Mormon 
> temple, and is intended to wash sins away for the commencement of 
> church membership.
> Jewish leaders have called the practice arrogant and said it is 
> disrespectful to the dead, especially Holocaust victims.
> 
> "Baptism by proxy is a fundamentally important doctrine of the 
> Latter-day Saints," Otterson said. "We have cooperative relationships 
> with churches, governments -- both state and national -- going back to

> the last century.
> 
> Our practice of negotiating for records and making them available for 
> genealogical research is very well known."
> Father Massa said he is not aware of aggressive attempts to obtain 
> baptismal records at Catholic parishes in any of the U.S.
> dioceses.
> He also said the Catholic Church will continue to reach out to the 
> Mormons and carry on the efforts of understanding that have already 
> begun, especially in Salt Lake City.
> "Profound theological differences are not an excuse for avoiding 
> dialogue, but a reason for pursuing dialogue," Father Massa said.
> END
> 
> Gloria
> 
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Joseph Laiacona <joseph at laiacona.org>
> To: terminiimerese at comunesofitaly.org
> Sent: Tuesday, May 6, 2008 12:57:37 PM
> Subject: Re: [TI] Catholic church ban on Mormans 
> accessingSacramentalrecords.
> 
> As I believe it is practiced...
> 
> the Mormons use the records to trace their family lineage. They have 
> to have proof that the ancestors they are submitting for baptism are 
> actually their ancestors.
> 
> Once they prove that one (or more) of the names they submit are indeed

> ancestors, those ancestors are then joined by baptism to the church 
> and therefore saved.
> 
> It has nothing to do with saving strangers... It's their ancestors 
> they want to be with in Mormon heaven.
> 
> Joe
> who is not a Mormon...
> 
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