[TI] Catholic church ban on Mormans accessing Sacramental records.

Wed May 28 13:13:22 CDT 2008

My 2 cents, three weeks late... (been on the road)

I'm a Catholic but I don't think the "ban" on Mormon
access to Catholic records is going to impact things
very much for us. I think that many, if not most
Catholic parishes already had been observing policies
of very limited access to sacramental records. In some
ways this "new" ban is merely restating what has
always been the policy of the Church over the
centuries even if it may not have been always enforced
in some places and times.

Our own Duomo in Termini is a good case in point of
this pre-existing policy of limited access to the
records. Over the years we have barely received access
to these records and it's usually only with Fr.
Anthony's presence or only lately with the parish
becoming somewhat familiar with a few members of our
genealogical group and even then, many of us are
Catholics or former Catholics asking for records on
our own ancestors. 

Why the big deal over access to these records? 

There are several reasons for the limited access
policy including people's privacy but the big reason
has always been that if a person could get free access
to sacramental records without safeguards, they could
do something like go in and erase a previous marriage
on the back of a baptismal record so that they or
perhaps another person could then be potentially free
to remarry in the Church even when that person might
already still be validly married to someone else. This
would be a very grave situation in the eyes of the
Church and most priests want to avoid something like
this ever happening at any cost even if it means
making the records off-limits to most people.

Also a person's First Communion, Confirmation,
Matrimony and/or Holy Orders are all recorded on the
back of a person's Baptismal record at the person's
original church of Baptism and the presence or absence
of these sacramental events may have an impact on the
eligibility for receiving other Sacraments. 

The sacramental records also can be used to prevent
persons who are too closely related from being married
since familial relationships can be potentially
researched through these records and hence a reason to
guard even the older records.

Overall, the sacramental records are treated much more
seriously by the Church than they would be if they
were considered to be merely historical records. This
is because the Church believes that she has been
entrusted by Christ with guardianship and proper
adminstration of the Sacraments and these records are
vital to the ability to be able to properly fulfill
this responsibility.

I think most parishes will still cooperate with us if
they can determine that the records are being
requested by related individuals for genuine family
genealogy as opposed to being requested by an
unrelated group from another religion for unknown
practices. So I think we will still be in mostly good
shape.

Sorry to join in 3 weeks late! Hope all are well and
enjoying the beginning of Summer! :-)

Ken Geraci 

--- Frank <fpalmis at comcast.net> wrote:

> Hello all.  May I add my thoughts.
> 
> I am a practicing Catholic.  This whole thing seems
> ridiculous to me for
> several reasons.
> 
> First, as a Catholic, I'm not at all
> worried/concerned/offended by anything
> someone else purports to "do" to my ancestors.  I
> know what I believe.  Even
> if the Mormons were intent on using Catholic
> baptismal and other records to
> baptize Catholics postumously into their faith, it
> would mean the same to me
> as someone saying they were going to curse my
> ancestors into hell!
> 
> Second, others have mentioned difficulties they have
> had in being able to
> get Catholic Church records in other countries for
> their own families'
> genealogical research.  I haven't tried that yet. 
> But what I do know is
> that I had to pay $25 to get a copy of a relative's
> baptismal record from a
> diocese, which I won't embarrass by naming it.  My
> point is that if the
> Catholic Church were to give Mormons the records for
> free, as a Catholic I
> would be very offended just because they wouldn't
> give them to me for free,
> and it was MY relative!  It would be wonderful for
> me as someone researching
> my genealogy if those Catholic Church records were
> digitized, etc., of
> course, but I'm thinking my Church's arrogance is
> really what is at work
> here, rather than any religious conviction or
> concern.
> 
> Third, as a Catholic, sometimes I'm
> embarrassed/offended by what my Church
> or its hierarchy does or fails to do, just as I am
> sometimes by what my
> government does or fails to do.  This is perhaps one
> of those times.
> 
> Frank
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: terminiimerese-bounces at comunesofitaly.org
> [mailto:terminiimerese-bounces at comunesofitaly.org]On
> Behalf Of Gloria
> Otto
> Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 1:26 PM
> To: terminiimerese at comunesofitaly.org
> Subject: Re: [TI] Catholic church ban on Mormans
> accessingSacramentalrecords.
> 
> 
> This does not sound good for genealogists. From the
> Catholic News Service:
>
http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0802443.htm
> 
> VATICAN-MORMONS May-2-2008 (1,010 words) xxxn
> Vatican letter directs bishops to keep parish
> records from Mormons
> By Chaz Muth
> Catholic News Service
> WASHINGTON (CNS) -- In an effort to block posthumous
> rebaptisms by the
> Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints,
> Catholic dioceses throughout
> the world have been directed by the Vatican not to
> give information in
> parish registers to the Mormons' Genealogical
> Society of Utah.
> 
> An April 5 letter from the Vatican Congregation for
> Clergy, obtained by
> Catholic News Service in late April, asks episcopal
> conferences to direct
> all bishops to keep the Latter-day Saints from
> microfilming and digitizing
> information contained in those registers.
> 
> The order came in light of "grave reservations"
> expressed in a Jan. 29
> letter from the Vatican Congregation for the
> Doctrine of the Faith, the
> clergy congregation's letter said.
> Father James Massa, executive director of the U.S.
> bishops' Secretariat of
> Ecumenical and Interreligious Affairs, said
> 
> the step was taken to prevent the Latter-day Saints
> from using records --
> such as baptismal documentation -- to posthumously
> baptize by proxy the
> ancestors of church members.
> Posthumous baptisms by proxy have been a common
> practice for the Latter-day
> Saints -- commonly known as Mormons -- for more than
> a century, allowing the
> church's faithful to have their ancestors baptized
> into their faith so they
> may be united in the afterlife, said Mike Otterson,
> a spokesman in the
> church's Salt Lake City headquarters.
> 
> In a telephone interview with CNS May 1, Otterson
> said he wanted a chance to
> review the contents of the letter before commenting
> on how it will affect
> the Mormons' relationship with the Catholic Church.
> "This dicastery is bringing this matter to the
> attention of the various
> conferences of bishops," the letter reads. "The
> congregation requests that
> the conference notifies each diocesan bishop in
> order to ensure that such a
> detrimental practice is not permitted in his
> territory, due to the
> confidentiality of the faithful and so as not to
> cooperate with the
> erroneous practices of the Church of Jesus Christ of
> Latter-day Saints."
> The letter is dated 10 days before Pope Benedict
> XVI's April 15-20 U.S.
> visit, during which he presided over an ecumenical
> prayer service attended
> by two Mormon leaders. It marked the first time
> Mormons had participated in
> a papal prayer service.
> 
> Father Massa said he could see how the policy stated
> in the letter could
> strain relations between the Catholic Church and the
> Latter-day Saints.
> "It certainly has that potential," he said. "But I
> would also say that the
> purpose of interreligious dialogue is not to only
> identify agreements, but
> also to understand our differences. As Catholics, we
> have to make very clear
> to them their practice of so-called rebaptism is
> unacceptable from the
> standpoint of Catholic truth."
> The Catholic Church will eventually open a dialogue
> with the Mormons about
> the rebaptism issue, Father Massa said, "but we are
> at the beginning of the
> beginning of a new relationship with the LDS. The
> first step in any dialogue
> is to establish trust and to seek friendship."
> 
> The two faiths share intrinsic viewpoints on key
> issues the United States is
> facing, particularly the pro-life position on
> abortion and an opposition to
> same-sex marriage.
> However, theological differences have cropped up
> between Mormons and
> Catholics in the past.
> 
> In 2001 the Vatican's doctrinal congregation issued
> a ruling that baptism
> conferred by the Church of Jesus Christ of
> Latter-day Saints cannot be
> considered a valid Christian baptism, thus requiring
> converts from that
> religion to Catholicism to receive a Catholic
> baptism.
> "We don't have an issue with the fact that the
> Catholic Church doesn't
> recognize our baptisms, because we don't recognize
> theirs," Otterson said.
> "It's a difference of belief."
> When issuing its 2001 ruling, the Vatican said that
> even though the Mormon
> baptismal rite refers to the Father, Son and Holy
> Spirit, the church's
> beliefs about the identity of the three persons are
> so different from
> Catholic and mainline Christian belief that the rite
> cannot be regarded as a
> Christian baptism.
> Latter-day Saints regard Jesus and the Holy Spirit
> as children of the Father
> and the Heavenly Mother. They believe that baptism
> was instituted by the
> Father, not Christ, and that it goes back to Adam
> and Eve.
> 
> Msgr. J. Terrence Fitzgerald -- vicar general of the
> Diocese of Salt Lake
> City -- said he didn't understand why the Latter-day
> Saints church was
> singled out in this latest Vatican policy regarding
> parish records.
> "We have a policy not to give out baptismal records
> to anyone unless they
> are entitled to have them," Msgr. Fitzgerald said of
> his diocese. "That
> isn't just for the Church of the Latter-day Saints.
> That is for all groups."
> Though he said the Salt Lake City Diocese has
> enjoyed a long-standing
> dialogue with the Latter-day Saints, Msgr.
> Fitzgerald said the diocese does
> not support giving the Mormons names for the sake of
> rebaptism.
> Mormons have been criticized by several other faiths
> -- perhaps most
> passionately by the Jews -- for the church's
> practice of posthumous baptism.
> 
> Members of the Latter-day Saints believe baptizing
> their ancestors by proxy
> gives the dead an opportunity to embrace the faith
> in the afterlife. The
> actual baptism-by-proxy ceremony occurs in a Mormon
> temple, and is intended
> to wash sins away for the commencement of church
> membership.
> Jewish leaders have called the practice arrogant and
> said it is
> disrespectful to the dead, especially Holocaust
> victims.
> 
> "Baptism by proxy is a fundamentally important
> doctrine of the Latter-day
> Saints," Otterson said. "We have cooperative
> relationships with churches,
> governments -- both state and national -- going back
> to the last century.
> 
> Our practice of negotiating for records and making
> them available for
> genealogical research is very well known."
> Father Massa said he is not aware of aggressive
> attempts to obtain baptismal
> records at Catholic parishes in any of the U.S.
> dioceses.
> He also said the Catholic Church will continue to
> reach out to the Mormons
> and carry on the efforts of understanding that have
> already begun,
> especially in Salt Lake City.
> "Profound theological differences are not an excuse
> for avoiding dialogue,
> but a reason for pursuing dialogue," Father Massa
> said.
> END
> 
> Gloria
> 
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Joseph Laiacona <joseph at laiacona.org>
> To: terminiimerese at comunesofitaly.org
> Sent: Tuesday, May 6, 2008 12:57:37 PM
> Subject: Re: [TI] Catholic church ban on Mormans
> accessingSacramentalrecords.
> 
> As I believe it is practiced...
> 
> the Mormons use the records to trace their family
> lineage. They have to have
> proof that the ancestors they are submitting for
> baptism are actually their
> ancestors.
> 
> Once they prove that one (or more) of the names they
> submit are indeed
> ancestors, those ancestors are then joined by
> baptism to the church and
> therefore saved.
> 
> It has nothing to do with saving strangers... It's
> their ancestors they want
> to be with in Mormon heaven.
> 
> Joe
> who is not a Mormon...
> 
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