[TI] Catholic church ban on Mormans accessingSacramentalrecords.

[Y Simonson]

Thank you Frank.:)

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Frank" <fpalmis at comcast.net>
To: <terminiimerese at comunesofitaly.org>
Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 1:55 PM
Subject: Re: [TI] Catholic church ban on Mormans 
accessingSacramentalrecords.


> Hello all.  May I add my thoughts.
>
> I am a practicing Catholic.  This whole thing seems ridiculous to me for
> several reasons.
>
> First, as a Catholic, I'm not at all worried/concerned/offended by 
> anything
> someone else purports to "do" to my ancestors.  I know what I believe. 
> Even
> if the Mormons were intent on using Catholic baptismal and other records 
> to
> baptize Catholics postumously into their faith, it would mean the same to 
> me
> as someone saying they were going to curse my ancestors into hell!
>
> Second, others have mentioned difficulties they have had in being able to
> get Catholic Church records in other countries for their own families'
> genealogical research.  I haven't tried that yet.  But what I do know is
> that I had to pay $25 to get a copy of a relative's baptismal record from 
> a
> diocese, which I won't embarrass by naming it.  My point is that if the
> Catholic Church were to give Mormons the records for free, as a Catholic I
> would be very offended just because they wouldn't give them to me for 
> free,
> and it was MY relative!  It would be wonderful for me as someone 
> researching
> my genealogy if those Catholic Church records were digitized, etc., of
> course, but I'm thinking my Church's arrogance is really what is at work
> here, rather than any religious conviction or concern.
>
> Third, as a Catholic, sometimes I'm embarrassed/offended by what my Church
> or its hierarchy does or fails to do, just as I am sometimes by what my
> government does or fails to do.  This is perhaps one of those times.
>
> Frank
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: terminiimerese-bounces at comunesofitaly.org
> [mailto:terminiimerese-bounces at comunesofitaly.org]On Behalf Of Gloria
> Otto
> Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 1:26 PM
> To: terminiimerese at comunesofitaly.org
> Subject: Re: [TI] Catholic church ban on Mormans
> accessingSacramentalrecords.
>
>
> This does not sound good for genealogists. From the Catholic News Service:
> http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0802443.htm
>
> VATICAN-MORMONS May-2-2008 (1,010 words) xxxn
> Vatican letter directs bishops to keep parish records from Mormons
> By Chaz Muth
> Catholic News Service
> WASHINGTON (CNS) -- In an effort to block posthumous rebaptisms by the
> Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Catholic dioceses throughout
> the world have been directed by the Vatican not to give information in
> parish registers to the Mormons' Genealogical Society of Utah.
>
> An April 5 letter from the Vatican Congregation for Clergy, obtained by
> Catholic News Service in late April, asks episcopal conferences to direct
> all bishops to keep the Latter-day Saints from microfilming and digitizing
> information contained in those registers.
>
> The order came in light of "grave reservations" expressed in a Jan. 29
> letter from the Vatican Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, the
> clergy congregation's letter said.
> Father James Massa, executive director of the U.S. bishops' Secretariat of
> Ecumenical and Interreligious Affairs, said
>
> the step was taken to prevent the Latter-day Saints from using records --
> such as baptismal documentation -- to posthumously baptize by proxy the
> ancestors of church members.
> Posthumous baptisms by proxy have been a common practice for the 
> Latter-day
> Saints -- commonly known as Mormons -- for more than a century, allowing 
> the
> church's faithful to have their ancestors baptized into their faith so 
> they
> may be united in the afterlife, said Mike Otterson, a spokesman in the
> church's Salt Lake City headquarters.
>
> In a telephone interview with CNS May 1, Otterson said he wanted a chance 
> to
> review the contents of the letter before commenting on how it will affect
> the Mormons' relationship with the Catholic Church.
> "This dicastery is bringing this matter to the attention of the various
> conferences of bishops," the letter reads. "The congregation requests that
> the conference notifies each diocesan bishop in order to ensure that such 
> a
> detrimental practice is not permitted in his territory, due to the
> confidentiality of the faithful and so as not to cooperate with the
> erroneous practices of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints."
> The letter is dated 10 days before Pope Benedict XVI's April 15-20 U.S.
> visit, during which he presided over an ecumenical prayer service attended
> by two Mormon leaders. It marked the first time Mormons had participated 
> in
> a papal prayer service.
>
> Father Massa said he could see how the policy stated in the letter could
> strain relations between the Catholic Church and the Latter-day Saints.
> "It certainly has that potential," he said. "But I would also say that the
> purpose of interreligious dialogue is not to only identify agreements, but
> also to understand our differences. As Catholics, we have to make very 
> clear
> to them their practice of so-called rebaptism is unacceptable from the
> standpoint of Catholic truth."
> The Catholic Church will eventually open a dialogue with the Mormons about
> the rebaptism issue, Father Massa said, "but we are at the beginning of 
> the
> beginning of a new relationship with the LDS. The first step in any 
> dialogue
> is to establish trust and to seek friendship."
>
> The two faiths share intrinsic viewpoints on key issues the United States 
> is
> facing, particularly the pro-life position on abortion and an opposition 
> to
> same-sex marriage.
> However, theological differences have cropped up between Mormons and
> Catholics in the past.
>
> In 2001 the Vatican's doctrinal congregation issued a ruling that baptism
> conferred by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints cannot be
> considered a valid Christian baptism, thus requiring converts from that
> religion to Catholicism to receive a Catholic baptism.
> "We don't have an issue with the fact that the Catholic Church doesn't
> recognize our baptisms, because we don't recognize theirs," Otterson said.
> "It's a difference of belief."
> When issuing its 2001 ruling, the Vatican said that even though the Mormon
> baptismal rite refers to the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, the church's
> beliefs about the identity of the three persons are so different from
> Catholic and mainline Christian belief that the rite cannot be regarded as 
> a
> Christian baptism.
> Latter-day Saints regard Jesus and the Holy Spirit as children of the 
> Father
> and the Heavenly Mother. They believe that baptism was instituted by the
> Father, not Christ, and that it goes back to Adam and Eve.
>
> Msgr. J. Terrence Fitzgerald -- vicar general of the Diocese of Salt Lake
> City -- said he didn't understand why the Latter-day Saints church was
> singled out in this latest Vatican policy regarding parish records.
> "We have a policy not to give out baptismal records to anyone unless they
> are entitled to have them," Msgr. Fitzgerald said of his diocese. "That
> isn't just for the Church of the Latter-day Saints. That is for all 
> groups."
> Though he said the Salt Lake City Diocese has enjoyed a long-standing
> dialogue with the Latter-day Saints, Msgr. Fitzgerald said the diocese 
> does
> not support giving the Mormons names for the sake of rebaptism.
> Mormons have been criticized by several other faiths -- perhaps most
> passionately by the Jews -- for the church's practice of posthumous 
> baptism.
>
> Members of the Latter-day Saints believe baptizing their ancestors by 
> proxy
> gives the dead an opportunity to embrace the faith in the afterlife. The
> actual baptism-by-proxy ceremony occurs in a Mormon temple, and is 
> intended
> to wash sins away for the commencement of church membership.
> Jewish leaders have called the practice arrogant and said it is
> disrespectful to the dead, especially Holocaust victims.
>
> "Baptism by proxy is a fundamentally important doctrine of the Latter-day
> Saints," Otterson said. "We have cooperative relationships with churches,
> governments -- both state and national -- going back to the last century.
>
> Our practice of negotiating for records and making them available for
> genealogical research is very well known."
> Father Massa said he is not aware of aggressive attempts to obtain 
> baptismal
> records at Catholic parishes in any of the U.S. dioceses.
> He also said the Catholic Church will continue to reach out to the Mormons
> and carry on the efforts of understanding that have already begun,
> especially in Salt Lake City.
> "Profound theological differences are not an excuse for avoiding dialogue,
> but a reason for pursuing dialogue," Father Massa said.
> END
>
> Gloria
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Joseph Laiacona <joseph at laiacona.org>
> To: terminiimerese at comunesofitaly.org
> Sent: Tuesday, May 6, 2008 12:57:37 PM
> Subject: Re: [TI] Catholic church ban on Mormans
> accessingSacramentalrecords.
>
> As I believe it is practiced...
>
> the Mormons use the records to trace their family lineage. They have to 
> have
> proof that the ancestors they are submitting for baptism are actually 
> their
> ancestors.
>
> Once they prove that one (or more) of the names they submit are indeed
> ancestors, those ancestors are then joined by baptism to the church and
> therefore saved.
>
> It has nothing to do with saving strangers... It's their ancestors they 
> want
> to be with in Mormon heaven.
>
> Joe
> who is not a Mormon...
>
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