[TI] Catholic church ban on Mormans accessingSacramentalrecords.

Tue May 6 13:55:50 CDT 2008

Hello all.  May I add my thoughts.

I am a practicing Catholic.  This whole thing seems ridiculous to me for
several reasons.

First, as a Catholic, I'm not at all worried/concerned/offended by anything
someone else purports to "do" to my ancestors.  I know what I believe.  Even
if the Mormons were intent on using Catholic baptismal and other records to
baptize Catholics postumously into their faith, it would mean the same to me
as someone saying they were going to curse my ancestors into hell!

Second, others have mentioned difficulties they have had in being able to
get Catholic Church records in other countries for their own families'
genealogical research.  I haven't tried that yet.  But what I do know is
that I had to pay $25 to get a copy of a relative's baptismal record from a
diocese, which I won't embarrass by naming it.  My point is that if the
Catholic Church were to give Mormons the records for free, as a Catholic I
would be very offended just because they wouldn't give them to me for free,
and it was MY relative!  It would be wonderful for me as someone researching
my genealogy if those Catholic Church records were digitized, etc., of
course, but I'm thinking my Church's arrogance is really what is at work
here, rather than any religious conviction or concern.

Third, as a Catholic, sometimes I'm embarrassed/offended by what my Church
or its hierarchy does or fails to do, just as I am sometimes by what my
government does or fails to do.  This is perhaps one of those times.

Frank

-----Original Message-----
From: terminiimerese-bounces at comunesofitaly.org
[mailto:terminiimerese-bounces at comunesofitaly.org]On Behalf Of Gloria
Otto
Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 1:26 PM
To: terminiimerese at comunesofitaly.org
Subject: Re: [TI] Catholic church ban on Mormans
accessingSacramentalrecords.

This does not sound good for genealogists. From the Catholic News Service:
http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0802443.htm

VATICAN-MORMONS May-2-2008 (1,010 words) xxxn
Vatican letter directs bishops to keep parish records from Mormons
By Chaz Muth
Catholic News Service
WASHINGTON (CNS) -- In an effort to block posthumous rebaptisms by the
Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Catholic dioceses throughout
the world have been directed by the Vatican not to give information in
parish registers to the Mormons' Genealogical Society of Utah.

An April 5 letter from the Vatican Congregation for Clergy, obtained by
Catholic News Service in late April, asks episcopal conferences to direct
all bishops to keep the Latter-day Saints from microfilming and digitizing
information contained in those registers.

The order came in light of "grave reservations" expressed in a Jan. 29
letter from the Vatican Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, the
clergy congregation's letter said.
Father James Massa, executive director of the U.S. bishops' Secretariat of
Ecumenical and Interreligious Affairs, said

the step was taken to prevent the Latter-day Saints from using records --
such as baptismal documentation -- to posthumously baptize by proxy the
ancestors of church members.
Posthumous baptisms by proxy have been a common practice for the Latter-day
Saints -- commonly known as Mormons -- for more than a century, allowing the
church's faithful to have their ancestors baptized into their faith so they
may be united in the afterlife, said Mike Otterson, a spokesman in the
church's Salt Lake City headquarters.

In a telephone interview with CNS May 1, Otterson said he wanted a chance to
review the contents of the letter before commenting on how it will affect
the Mormons' relationship with the Catholic Church.
"This dicastery is bringing this matter to the attention of the various
conferences of bishops," the letter reads. "The congregation requests that
the conference notifies each diocesan bishop in order to ensure that such a
detrimental practice is not permitted in his territory, due to the
confidentiality of the faithful and so as not to cooperate with the
erroneous practices of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints."
The letter is dated 10 days before Pope Benedict XVI's April 15-20 U.S.
visit, during which he presided over an ecumenical prayer service attended
by two Mormon leaders. It marked the first time Mormons had participated in
a papal prayer service.

Father Massa said he could see how the policy stated in the letter could
strain relations between the Catholic Church and the Latter-day Saints.
"It certainly has that potential," he said. "But I would also say that the
purpose of interreligious dialogue is not to only identify agreements, but
also to understand our differences. As Catholics, we have to make very clear
to them their practice of so-called rebaptism is unacceptable from the
standpoint of Catholic truth."
The Catholic Church will eventually open a dialogue with the Mormons about
the rebaptism issue, Father Massa said, "but we are at the beginning of the
beginning of a new relationship with the LDS. The first step in any dialogue
is to establish trust and to seek friendship."

The two faiths share intrinsic viewpoints on key issues the United States is
facing, particularly the pro-life position on abortion and an opposition to
same-sex marriage.
However, theological differences have cropped up between Mormons and
Catholics in the past.

In 2001 the Vatican's doctrinal congregation issued a ruling that baptism
conferred by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints cannot be
considered a valid Christian baptism, thus requiring converts from that
religion to Catholicism to receive a Catholic baptism.
"We don't have an issue with the fact that the Catholic Church doesn't
recognize our baptisms, because we don't recognize theirs," Otterson said.
"It's a difference of belief."
When issuing its 2001 ruling, the Vatican said that even though the Mormon
baptismal rite refers to the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, the church's
beliefs about the identity of the three persons are so different from
Catholic and mainline Christian belief that the rite cannot be regarded as a
Christian baptism.
Latter-day Saints regard Jesus and the Holy Spirit as children of the Father
and the Heavenly Mother. They believe that baptism was instituted by the
Father, not Christ, and that it goes back to Adam and Eve.

Msgr. J. Terrence Fitzgerald -- vicar general of the Diocese of Salt Lake
City -- said he didn't understand why the Latter-day Saints church was
singled out in this latest Vatican policy regarding parish records.
"We have a policy not to give out baptismal records to anyone unless they
are entitled to have them," Msgr. Fitzgerald said of his diocese. "That
isn't just for the Church of the Latter-day Saints. That is for all groups."
Though he said the Salt Lake City Diocese has enjoyed a long-standing
dialogue with the Latter-day Saints, Msgr. Fitzgerald said the diocese does
not support giving the Mormons names for the sake of rebaptism.
Mormons have been criticized by several other faiths -- perhaps most
passionately by the Jews -- for the church's practice of posthumous baptism.

Members of the Latter-day Saints believe baptizing their ancestors by proxy
gives the dead an opportunity to embrace the faith in the afterlife. The
actual baptism-by-proxy ceremony occurs in a Mormon temple, and is intended
to wash sins away for the commencement of church membership.
Jewish leaders have called the practice arrogant and said it is
disrespectful to the dead, especially Holocaust victims.

"Baptism by proxy is a fundamentally important doctrine of the Latter-day
Saints," Otterson said. "We have cooperative relationships with churches,
governments -- both state and national -- going back to the last century.

Our practice of negotiating for records and making them available for
genealogical research is very well known."
Father Massa said he is not aware of aggressive attempts to obtain baptismal
records at Catholic parishes in any of the U.S. dioceses.
He also said the Catholic Church will continue to reach out to the Mormons
and carry on the efforts of understanding that have already begun,
especially in Salt Lake City.
"Profound theological differences are not an excuse for avoiding dialogue,
but a reason for pursuing dialogue," Father Massa said.
END

Gloria

----- Original Message ----
From: Joseph Laiacona <joseph at laiacona.org>
To: terminiimerese at comunesofitaly.org
Sent: Tuesday, May 6, 2008 12:57:37 PM
Subject: Re: [TI] Catholic church ban on Mormans
accessingSacramentalrecords.

As I believe it is practiced...

the Mormons use the records to trace their family lineage. They have to have
proof that the ancestors they are submitting for baptism are actually their
ancestors.

Once they prove that one (or more) of the names they submit are indeed
ancestors, those ancestors are then joined by baptism to the church and
therefore saved.

It has nothing to do with saving strangers... It's their ancestors they want
to be with in Mormon heaven.

Joe
who is not a Mormon...

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